Author Topic: State of the DLC  (Read 49948 times)

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Offline Seraphna

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2016, 08:38:49 PM »
Again, please read Strife's response in full because the two of you seem to have failed to realize that this actually would fulfill the promise you're saying needs to be filled before... being able to actually fulfill the promise. This isn't the sort of response we're looking for, it doesn't answer the questions, it simply muddles things into a level of unreasonable demands that might mean the DLC taking a super long time to ever come out, or not at all.

All the while suggesting the company run itself into the ground and fail to ever make another game again out of a belief that a stringent regimen of making one thing at a time be followed, despite that not being reasonable, logical, financially viable, or even something anyone in the industry would ever possibly expect.

These would still be part of Freedom Planet, the fact they'd have a different executable in no way, shape, or form changes that. To hold that standard is just not even trying to think about the best solution. This isn't broken promises, this is an attempt to actually fulfill them. And yes, I will stop this conversation if a civil manner isn't maintained about it.

Offline Seraphna

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2016, 08:58:06 PM »
If I can actually make things very simple, here's the choice Strife has to make right now:

1. Produce the original DLC as a component to the current game. The end result will take a very, very long time to do, will not be the best possible product, and will be super buggy and possibly very expensive to ever deliver to ported versions of the game. (Which, I should point out, were never promised. That's an extra.)

2. Produce two standalone versions of the DLC in a much more stable engine, able to even possibly utilize the upgraded engines that we've been working on to produce much more substancial versions of the promised DLC, complete with tons of new levels, content, and story. In an engine which is also very simple to port from and can be made available to users on any platform we move the main game to without much issue.

Regardless of whether it's a patch to the original game, or standalone, they are still things which belong to the Freedom Planet series. Their stories are still part of the same story that is portrayed in the main game, and you'll in fact be getting MORE than was ever promised with the second option. DLC delivered in Standalone is also far from an unprecidented matter, studios often do this when they run into complications with their original engine which prevent them from delivering the kind of content they wanted to produce.

Backers are NOT going to be shorted, you'll be getting the content, as promised. If you're not a backer, I'm fairly certain we'll be working something out for people too. This isn't a broken promise, this is the key to fulfilling it. You could have option 1, but let's be plain. As a fan, do you want more content or less? Do you want it sooner, or much, much later? Option 1 does not present something you'll get a lot out of or anytime soon due to the bug issues. Option 2 promises above and beyond the original promise.

I'll also be frank: Production on Freedom Planet 2 is not going to change or halt. It's moving forward. Please make peace with it, Strife is still working to deliver all the Kickstarter promises and has even offered to refund those not satisfied. This isn't about that. We're not making it about that. So please, don't clutter this thread with that. Stick to the DLC.

Offline Strife

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2016, 09:49:34 PM »
Echoing what Seraphna said but there's a few things I'd like to emphasize.

1. I cannot, and will not, halt production on Freedom Planet 2 - a game with a much higher budget, larger staff and strict internal deadlines - to work on a free, low-budget expansion to our previous game that would provide little if any income to our studio. It would be a very poor business decision. I really would like to move forward instead of saying in the same place.

2. I acknowledge that the Kickstarter stretch goals were too ambitious on my part, and I apologize. What I have proposed so far is my way of trying to make it up to people, because I still want to try and do my best to turn this into something cool and beneficial.

3. While I understand that I made a promise, I cannot be chained to it, for the sake of my mental well-being. You're entitled to your opinions about me, but please don't use the DLC as an excuse to threaten or manipulate me or my staff. Again, I am offering refunds to any backers who feel dissatisfied with my decisions.

Offline SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2016, 09:57:40 PM »
Don't promise what you can't finish.

This is a fabulous idea in hindsight, but is not massively useful at the exact moment.

Since I'm working with MP2 again for the next port, I should have an opportunity to comb through the engine and figure out what happened with Milla and other things. Beyond that, I dread the possibility of Torque and Spade's development causing similar issues to happen in the future which is why I thought of this compromise.

Honestly the only thing keeping me going with Spade/Torque at this point is because I was obligated to in the Kickstarter. I realized pretty quickly after I started working on them that it was too ambitious of me to include them as stretch goals, and the time and effort I've put into working on them could have been much better served polishing the experience of the original three characters. If it weren't for their status as stretch goals then I would have stopped working on them much earlier. I can keep going if that's what the Kickstarter backers want me to do, but it will take a long time because I don't want to settle for less than the best that I can do.

Cool. As long as the existing game isn't kinda just left to languish entirely and gets that small bit of extra polish then the idea of splitting the DLC off into sidegame things becomes a lot easier to swallow. It's also probably better for said DLC from a pure quality standpoint, MMF2 is an ass to work with and it turns out making levels that fit five characters all of whom handle completely differently is actually really hard! In that regard you seem to have figured out what the best path is, so I say do you. I'm sure it'll work out better than trying to fit all this shit into one game.

also i'm sorta glad you said it so I didn't have to about the DLC being too ambitious an inclusion because I've kinda thought that for a while so it's sorta funny to see we're on the same sort of wavelength. I'm also not gonna lie, it's sorta ass that the DLC promised in the KS got put on the backburner for a sequel that nobody explicitly pledged for. I know it makes the most business sense since yeah you're probably right about the DLC probably not doing much for you and I totally don't envy your position, but that's still kind of a dodgy thing to do? Like, hindsight is 20/20 and all that so I'm not gonna bother telling you the obvious and I wouldn't really expect you to prioritize the DLC over FP2 now since that's in full swing but that's definitely dodgy, I would be way way more careful about trying the patience of people who gave you money for this stuff. I didn't, so I'm sorta just saying, if I did, that would probably gall me somewhat.

edit: k i missed the part where you're apparently offering refunds for unhappy backers which is probably about the best you could do in this scenario i dunno man

If not that, then at the very least the original backers will be gifted free copies.

Not gonna lie, since I'm not a backer and all, the DLC having been advertised as free for so incredibly long, and having actually spent my own time to play the DLC beta and provide feedback on it and stuff, it then suddenly not being a free thing like I was told it would be for months and having to buy it as a sidegame would make me sort of butthurt.

That said, you have options in this scenario, I'm like nearly certain you do a thing with Steam so that people who own a certain game get a sizable discount on a certain other game, or timed free "DLC" for people who own said game. Or a bunch of other things you could do to not make people like me butthurt.

I totally don't envy your position on any of this and at the end of the day I'm still gonna buy freedom planet 2 anyway, best of luck dude.
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Offline MirrorHoney

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2016, 01:55:13 AM »
What I see here is saddening. I'm afraid this isn't gonna end well...

I'd also advise to port FP1 to something that's easier to work with (like Unity), because let's face it, Multimedia Fusion is a clumsy, inefficent piece of dogshit, and porting it to a better, more flexible engine would make work on FP1 easier and open new opportunities for FP1 such as easier portability and different languages support, but oh well, it's not a good business decision either, as it would still take unnecessary time and effort. Personally, I would more happily pay for a full FP1 port with Spade and Torque fully incorporated in the game, regardless of how different their gameplay would be from the main trio, than for two relatively smaller games with just Spade and Torque respectively, but I'm afraid that nobody will share my opinion because FP1 is already made and bought by pretty much everybody here.
So Strife, if you're willing to go with "make new games instead of DLCs" way", that's my two cents. Not the best solution (let's call it "Freedom Planet DX" way"), but I think it would be better this way, because I'm not happy with the way FP1 goes on MMF: it's still broken as hell, and fixing bugs is already a major pain in the ass, let alone finishing both DLCs. Let me know what you think about it.

upd: After thinking on your words of how finishing DLCs is a poor business decision because sequel is in development, I'd also say that's it's a much poorer business decision to start a development of a sequel before finishing the first game (including DLCs) and polishing it, because... well, just look at this thread - pretty much everybody's upset! Not to mention that FP1, as I've alredy said, is broken.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:12:43 AM by MirrorHoney »

Offline Ultigonio

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2016, 02:19:54 AM »
In terms of having a better piece of software to play, Torque and Spade (especially Spade) having only levels and bosses built for them sounds like something I'd strongly support.

'Course, similar to what Punchy said, I'm just the teeniest, tiniest bit miffed that this will mean that something which has been established to be free for quite some length of time will now be something I need to pay for - but in terms of encouraging that you move forward (especially since FP1 seems to be something you have little energy and time for at the moment), it may be the ideal strategy.  Honestly, I'm not as attached to the idea of playing as Torque or Spade as some others were - I've had my fill of FP1, and, while more would be fine, I'd love to see something new.

All that said, I think the idea of having entirely separate games for Torque and Spade seems a bit troubling to me with respect to your workload - I'd assume that building brand new games for the two of them, however short they may be, will put more work on your plate than you were initially planning for the DLC.  I just hope that doesn't end up slowing you down in the long run.

Offline NBlast

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2016, 02:39:14 AM »
Not gonna lie, since I'm not a backer and all, the DLC having been advertised as free for so incredibly long, and having actually spent my own time to play the DLC beta and provide feedback on it and stuff, it then suddenly not being a free thing like I was told it would be for months and having to buy it as a sidegame would make me sort of butthurt.

That said, you have options in this scenario, I'm like nearly certain you do a thing with Steam so that people who own a certain game get a sizable discount on a certain other game, or timed free "DLC" for people who own said game. Or a bunch of other things you could do to not make people like me butthurt.

I totally don't envy your position on any of this and at the end of the day I'm still gonna buy freedom planet 2 anyway, best of luck dude.

I think that should be the main point of interest and discussion here.

Getting DLC delayed? I have all patience of the world. DLC being developed as separate games? No problem. Focusing on FP2 in favor of DLC? Okay, as long DLC will be delivered eventually. Everything else that may change against our preconceptions (like Torque's gameplay and such)? Again not a problem.

The main problem, for me at least is to charge people who already own the game for a DLC. I strikes me in two ways. Kickstarter stretch goals, I believe, does not state explicitly that those additions will be free for backers only. It could be implied, but it wasn't really as upfront as it should be in that case (Any piece of DLC that will be provided only to backers on Kickstarter is usually marked as *backer exclusive*). It would be (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) also a precedent of not offering DLC stretch for free for every owner. I think that there should be a look at the competition on the market. For example, I'm not a backer for Shovel Knight, but I still received DLC promised in the campaign.

I posted this idea earlier, but I would flesh it out a bit. There is a way of compromise, to get some money from those DLCs, but without angering the fanbase with asking them for more dosh, when they where thinking that they will get it for free.

DLC would be a standalone game. Freedom Planet: Chaser would consist of a Torque's campaign. It could arrive in the Steam Shop for 5 bucks. Every owner of FP1 would automatically get the game for free. That said, this standalone expansion would be also offered to those without the main game, working out as a demo of some sorts. While purchasing/beating the Chaser one will receive a -33% coupon for FP1. If the quality of the standalone game will be high, someone might be inclined to throw a bit more bucks, if he doesn't already own the game, because he just stumbled upon Chaser expansion. People already owning FP1 and Chaser still get a coupon, which could be given to a friend.

The same could be done for Freedom Planet: The Red Scarves, but it could grand a small discount for Freedom Planet 2 instead, for example
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:42:55 AM by NBlast »

Offline Zylphe

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2016, 04:19:14 AM »
You know when I backed I have full belief that you guys will do the right choice. After all I pushed forward multiple copy of Freedom Planet to my friends. Do what needs to be done and focus on the main task at hand. FP2. Then you could focus on the extras in due time.
It would be much more planned out if you pour all your efforts into the second game. Which already said so before in the thread.

Side's. I already grown to a point where I can't expect all fullfillments satisfied so I rather take what I can get no matter how much money I send to the devs. : ) Because the point is... (And while not everyone would agree with my statement) is that since Galaxy Trail is an up and coming Gaming Company that the money would be put towards something more grand. Such as their future titles (not just the Freedom Planet series but other games in general if they wish to do so in the future.) I would rather put towards my money to a indie dev in hopes to supplement the future titles then to just wait idly by for a free update to a game which I completed over numerous of times which I only pick up and play on random occasions.

I wish you the best of success Strife. Really I do and all of Galaxy Trail. Thank you for everything of FP series.

Offline Treya

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2016, 11:02:21 AM »
This isn't the first time stretch goal plans have changed.

Remember when there was meant to be a comic series? That got replaced (with improved art or voice acting? I don't exactly remember).
"Why can't you just..." fly off to outer space?

Offline NBlast

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2016, 12:14:30 PM »
This isn't the first time stretch goal plans have changed.

Remember when there was meant to be a comic series? That got replaced (with improved art or voice acting? I don't exactly remember).

Better pixel art. That was a good decision overall.

Offline Seraphna

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2016, 12:44:28 PM »
I'd also say that's it's a much poorer business decision to start a development of a sequel before finishing the first game (including DLCs) and polishing it, because... well, just look at this thread - pretty much everybody's upset! Not to mention that FP1, as I've alredy said, is broken.

I don't mean to be crude, but it's not a poor business decision. Every company producing games with sequels begins production on those sequels most often during the DLC phase of the previous game, if not even earlier while the first game is being made. This is called rolling phase production, it's a basic of the industry because video games are not made with 100% of your staff working on it from start to end, certain talents only come into effect in the beginning, middle, or end of production and if you have nothing else for them to work on, they are literally sitting on their hands doing nothing. You guys are actually telling us that losing a ton of money on delaying work that people who actually have nothing to do with FP1's development and wouldn't be able to help with it anyway is a good business decision. I want you to think about that, I mean seriously, think about that, and tell me how you think that's a good idea and what the benefit is for the cost. A cost, I should point out, you aren't actually privy too.

I often see people try to place the argument of "poor business decision", but I have to ask... how many video game companies have you run? Or businesses in general? How do so many people know what is and is not a good business decision, yet so many businesses go under all the time? You don't actually mean "Poor business decision", you probably mean you personally don't like what you're seeing, but those are not the same things.

'Course, similar to what Punchy said, I'm just the teeniest, tiniest bit miffed that this will mean that something which has been established to be free for quite some length of time will now be something I need to pay for - but in terms of encouraging that you move forward (especially since FP1 seems to be something you have little energy and time for at the moment), it may be the ideal strategy.  Honestly, I'm not as attached to the idea of playing as Torque or Spade as some others were - I've had my fill of FP1, and, while more would be fine, I'd love to see something new.

We've... again, not once stated that these will have to be paid for. I can guarantee backers will get it for free, and the talk of non-backers getting it for free for a limited time after release is being tossed around. We do thank everyone for letting us know how they feel on that subject and it IS being taken into account.

Quote
All that said, I think the idea of having entirely separate games for Torque and Spade seems a bit troubling to me with respect to your workload - I'd assume that building brand new games for the two of them, however short they may be, will put more work on your plate than you were initially planning for the DLC.  I just hope that doesn't end up slowing you down in the long run.

The exact opposite. As both Strife and I have stated several times now. The state of FP1's engine is in such a place that making a new game from the ground up is actually easier and LESS time consuming.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 PM by Seraphna »

Offline MirrorHoney

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2016, 01:27:06 PM »
I don't mean to be crude, but it's not a poor business decision. Every company producing games with sequels begins production on those sequels most often during the DLC phase of the previous game, if not even earlier while the first game is being made. This is called rolling phase production, it's a basic of the industry because video games are not made with 100% of your staff working on it from start to end, certain talents only come into effect in the beginning, middle, or end of production and if you have nothing else for them to work on, they are literally sitting on their hands doing nothing. You guys are actually telling us that losing a ton of money on delaying work that people who actually have nothing to do with FP1's development and wouldn't be able to help with it anyway is a good business decision. I want you to think about that, I mean seriously, think about that, and tell me how you think that's a good idea and what the benefit is for the cost. A cost, I should point out, you aren't actually privy too.

I often see people try to place the argument of "poor business decision", but I have to ask... how many video game companies have you run? Or businesses in general? How do so many people know what is and is not a good business decision, yet so many businesses go under all the time? You don't actually mean "Poor business decision", you probably mean you personally don't like what you're seeing, but those are not the same things.
I don't mean to be crude either, but OW THE EDGE.
OK, I admit my idiocy (first of all because I've never seen rolling phase production in action before - every franchise I follow (most notably EA's NFS series) starts working on the sequel once the game is fully complete and all DLCs are made and working normally, but those are AAA franchises and they rarely keep the cast for the next game (most notably EA's NFS series)...). Anyway, if you don't like what we're suggesting and think our suggestions are stupid, why not tell that you don't need any suggestions and/or lock the threads from retards like me? That would save both parties their nerves.

Offline WhiteLilyDragon

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2016, 01:48:37 PM »
I seriously can't tell if that's sarcasm or not. Ouch. Really rough language there, Honey.

It's like some people don't realize Strife isn't a random indie dev working on games and holding a day job on the side. GalaxyTrail is an actual company with bills to pay and people to pay and scheduled appointments- I don't know the half of running a company myself, but I still know what I'm entitled to as a consumer: Nothing.

GalaxyTrail needs to actually stay afloat. It's easy to say "BAD BUSINESS DECISIONS" as a consumer because we know what we would like; not what's best for the company behind the scenes. Acting like Strife should sink GalaxyTrail for the entitlement of a handful of people is disrespectful and it shocks me how (some other) types of fans behave during times like this.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:53:11 PM by .Luke »
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Offline Seraphna

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2016, 02:06:48 PM »
I don't mean to be crude either, but OW THE EDGE.
OK, I admit my idiocy (first of all because I've never seen rolling phase production in action before - every franchise I follow (most notably EA's NFS series) starts working on the sequel once the game is fully complete and all DLCs are made and working normally, but those are AAA franchises and they rarely keep the cast for the next game (most notably EA's NFS series)...).

EA doesn't work that way for any of their games. They've been a Rolling Production company for well over a decade. If you believe that they do one at a time sequentially like that... you've been fooled. My source would be several collegues who work at EA or have worked there before. Heck, it was a Bioware executive (a subsidary of EA games) who even pointed out how production cycles in their company (and their parent company) work.

What they do, possibly, is create an illusion by having 20+ production companies. You may see a production company working on only one game at a time, but the employees in that company are traded all around between them. You have to remember, while you think EA only makes one NFS at a time, they're also working on dozens of video games as well at the same time. The only difference here is GalaxyTrail only has a single franchise (so far) to work with. We're not even looking to make another until our first fully independent title gets made. I should point out that the studio behind the new NFS games is comprised, 80%, of employees from other EA studios. And no, they haven't left those studios.

...And no. No AAA studio on the planet keeps their full team working on DLC, and certainly not to completion of that DLC. There's no reason to keep people who work on engines, create concept art, create the music, etc, from working on a project after their done. And at that point you have to either let them go or put them to work on something else, otherwise you would be paying them to do nothing at all. That's the #1 reason for rolling productions, to keep staff members employed. It's been a long while since the industry standard was to treat it's employees like wandering vagabonds who only needed to be paid one project at a time.

Just to press my point down. EA Games, as an Umbrella Company, constantly shifts around staff. I'm sure my friend Ryan would love to know how he worked on several games at the same time if they don't do rolling productions. <_<;

Quote
Anyway, if you don't like what we're suggesting and think our suggestions are stupid, why not tell that you don't need any suggestions and/or lock the threads from retards like me? That would save both parties their nerves.

I will politely ask you once, and only once, to not put words into people's mouths. You're making your hostility more than a little clear with this passive agressive behavior.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:37:36 PM by Seraphna »

Offline MirrorHoney

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Re: State of the DLC
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2016, 02:47:25 PM »
Thanks for elaborating on the matter. I have no reason to argue anymore, thus I'm backing off from here before I'm gonna regret staying, as I'm already upset by how harsh this discussion is going (hah, like I'm not at fault of that).